Transcript of M. Butterflies Katz’s Live Guest Chat-Animal Rights Zone
18 June 2011
Carolyn Bailey:
ARZone is pleased to present M. Butterflies Katz as this week’s Live Chat Guest.
Butterflies began her journey over 40 years ago, at age 12, when she learned that "meat" was a dead animal, and immediately stopped eating animals. “In those pre-internet days, I had no other authority/inspiration to follow beyond my own conscience” explains Butterflies.
When Butterflies was 21, Jay Dinshah (the founder of the American Vegan Society) wrote eloquently about 'dynamic harmlessness' and inspired her veganism. It was the horror of the dairy industry that clinched it, but she rid her closet of leather and began buying only vegan products (which were difficult to source in those days).
At age 24, she met up with a vegan community called Gentle World after discovering their classic cookbook. She has since co-authored Incredibly Delicious; Recipes for a New Paradigm. She learned that preparing tasty delicious food was a great tool for vegan advocacy, and so has used it ever since. She now is a chef at a local vegan/organic café in the far north of New Zealand
Butterflies has created a new concept and practice in vegan events, called ‘Vegan Sharing Circles’ - in Florida , U.S.
Butterflies identifies with being an abolitionist, anti-speciesist activist, opposed to all violence imposed on human/nonhuman animals.
Barbara DeGrande:
You have had decades of experience talking to people about veganism. What do you consider to be the most effective form of vegan advocacy?
M. Butterflies Katz:
I guess I would have to say ‘speaking from your heart’, though I actually don’t know the answer. Believe it or not, lots of people become vegan from a relationship or from their spouse, so no kidding, I think ‘love relationships’ make vegans.
Gentle World founders have made a lot of vegans. Many people have walked through the doors of Gentle World’s vegan educational centre as a non-vegan and shortly after left as a vegan. I suppose the living example of a group of vegans and their heartfelt voice for nonhuman animals, a video or two, combined with delicious vegan food – is the package deal that sells it.
Supreme Master is responsible for quite a few vegans on the planet, apparently. The Abolitionist Approach is (make-sense) vegan advocacy that appears to have more success with making real vegans than groups who don’t even ask you to become vegan. The materials of the group Animal Equality are right up my alley, but I don’t know how effective they are. The most effective form of vegan advocacy is that which actually creates vegans, which Is not a hugely easy thing to do. As vegan educators – we need to encourage others to break through their eons of indoctrination that humans have the right to exploit other animals.
Barbara DeGrande:
Could you share a vegan education success story or two?
M. Butterflies Katz:
We've had many young wwoofers come from around the world to Gentle World's vegan educational center. One couple from Austria Florida
Sharni Buckley:
Welcome, Butterflies; how has the animal rights movement changed in the last thirty years? Do you think that veganism will continue to spread at an increasing rate?
M. Butterflies Katz:
Animal Rights activists weren’t even vegan years ago. Now, the word is out that to be an animal rights activist is synonymous with being vegan. How can one be for animal rights and at the very same time be involved in harming animals? In years past, it was about “cruel treatment” and now we’re coming in with a new and improved angle; abolishing animal use; then words like “respecting animals” or “humane” are not open to interpretation. For example, ‘our animals are treated with dignity and respect right up to their day at the slaughterhouse.’ We want people to see the simple Truth that animals are not ours to use for any reason.
There’s a dichotomy going on of more violence, insanity and environmental devastation, while at the very same time, the number of vegans on the planet is expanding. I can’t predict which way it will all go, however, I feel the only thing I can do is try to make more vegans on the planet; a solution for what ails our planet and its way too many inhabitants.
I think veganism will spread at an increasing rate, because it is The Truth; for the greatest good of nonhumans, humans and the planet we share. I believe and I hope that the truth will prevail. Historically, people have made mass changes of perception, and we’re asking them to do it again.
Tim Gier:
You spend time in New Zealand and you spend time in the US
M. Butterflies Katz:
I can’t even get a book from the library on animal rights in northern New Zealand U.S.
The U.S. New Zealand New Zealand or USA
Sky:
You’ve been involved with a vegan community called Gentle World since you were 24. Could you please explain how this community has impacted on your life and elaborate on why Gentle World exists?
M. Butterflies Katz:
Gentle World has impacted my life by sheltering me from the harshness of the non-vegan world out there, raising my consciousness by teaching me about integrity, defining and exemplifying ‘following the Truth’, prioritizing Love, and encouraging my own evolution and living the ideals that hardly anyone else ever talks about, let alone tries to live on a daily basis. It transformed me from a shallow, consumerist, suburban, dressed like a model, type person - to a country girl, a naturalist, who lives one with her environment, a non-consumer, a recycler and conservationist, and much different from the person I would have been if I had not joined paths with them.
To sum Gentle World up in a sentence: It is an intentional community of sun-loving, country-living, Truth seeking, vegans who have come together for the intention of improving themselves, and other lofty pursuits. Gentle World has a vegan educational centre in New Zealand
Gentle Worlders agree on some very important things, and right up there at the top of that list is veganism. Because they could not accept “the world as it is”, they have agreed to work together towards the building of a new one, both for themselves and as a model of what human beings can achieve, when they are willing to do what is right. To learn about Gentle World, visit the website: http://gentleworld.org
Brooke Cameron:
You’ve been critical in the past of humans feeding cats non-vegan food. Could you please explain what your solution to this would be, in the short term, given that many cats, being carnivorous, are unable to thrive, or even survive, on a vegan diet?
M. Butterflies Katz:
Vegans, who choose to be caregivers for rescued cats, I believe, should at least be lessening the demand for animal products by feeding cats at least some vegan cat kibble. Some dedicated vegans are successful with feeding their cats from the plant kingdom with supplementation, and if a feline has had their PH checked and is healthy, I’m all for it. In fact, I see it as evolutionary. Personally, I don’t want to live with carnivores. I don’t want to see hunting and killing in my immediate reality; it’s bad enough I have to be surrounded by it on Planet Earth, day in and day out. Plus, the creatures (mice, birds, geckos) in my surroundings are counting on me to keep our world a vegan sanctuary. Therefore, I live with only those nonhuman animals that can also eat vegan. They let you know.
I think vegans will feel more aligned with their values if they rescue dogs over cats - or rabbits or some other naturally herbivorous animal, if dogs are not appropriate for your situation. We have to do the best we can with any given circumstance. It’s a tough issue. I can’t deny what is in a can of cat food and how it got there; I just can’t wrap my head around why other animals must suffer and die to feed our companion cats.
Brooke Cameron:
Thanks! Is that not speciesist? To be anti-carnivores?
M. Butterflies Katz:
Perhaps. I never claimed to be completely nonspeciesist...I'm exploring the concept and it has become part of my evolution. I'm not anti-carnivores. However, I have to admit, I prefer the company of herbivores, of all species. Just a preference - because they are more gentle and less scary. (Not in original transcript: I would like to add that I don't harm human or nonhuman animals of any species, being vegan. Therefore my speciesism is on a whole different level than someone who actually harms other species of animals.)
Brooke Cameron:
Thanks, Butterflies. It's a very difficult and complicated issue. Thank you for your honesty.
M. Butterflies Katz:
Your welcome. That's one thing I'm good for.
Luna Hughes:
Why do you think it is that there is so much divisiveness in a movement that is about compassion and justice?
M. Butterflies Katz:
Two opposing viewpoints:
1. Someone may be more comfortable to come to veganism via identifying with being “straight-edge vegan” or “non-speciesist vegan” or “abolitionist vegan” or “a punk rock vegan” a “vegan-anarchist” or “raw food vegan” or “vegan muscle-making groups”– “vegan freaks” whatever - so because the vegan concept needs to take off, we are finding it everywhere, in all walks of life, in all ages and colors of people, in all religions and in atheists, in straight or gay, in straight-laced to pot-smokers, from doctors to wanderers, from Poland to Portland - thus so many factions to reach more and more people.
2. I think if we got out of our ego, we would see that we really need to unite, even though that is hard as we don’t agree on approach or tactics and sometimes don’t even seem to have the same goal. We feel so passionate about wanting to help nonhuman animals, and everyone thinks they’ve got the right approach and wants everyone else to follow their way of thinking – in order to really help liberate animals. So we’re a movement of everyone thinking their way of seeing it – is the right way – this seems to be an aspect of the human condition.
Carolyn Bailey:
You began your journey to veganism at the age of 12, how did your family and friends react to your decision, at such a young age, to stop eating animals, and what barriers did you face at that age?
M. Butterflies Katz:
Everyone said ‘how can you let her do this?’ And I mean EVERYONE. There was not a single person agreeing with me – I was on my own. Even though my parents were omnivores, they allowed me to live my convictions. I had to learn to fend for myself; did my own cooking. My brother, who initially told me “meat” was a dead animal, reacted by helping himself to my dinner portion, however he later became vegan and is a long-time vegan activist.
My parents eventually saw the light too. They were vegan(ish) for over 20 years. In their old age, they are letting go of it, however they have a vegan kitchen (except for cat food) and that is because my brother and I keep it that way. I can’t complain about parents who allowed their child to be vegetarian at a time in history when we didn’t actually know if I would die from it. In recent years, they’ve offered their home to host vegan banquets, sharing circles, and events.
When I was young in school, I was respected, but stood alone. However, even back in those days of relative ignorance about animal rights, I remember refusing to dissect in high school, and being allowed to abstain without any backlash. I feel if we are really self-assured in our stance on veganism, that we won’t create barriers. In college speech class, I gave a speech on Veganism and Empathy and got the highest grade in the class.
Carolyn Bailey:
Do you have any advice for children under 18 thinking about following a similar path that you wish you had at that age? Thanks!
M. Butterflies Katz:
I did not have the internet and all the many available resources we have today. In the Age of Information, there is no excuse for anyone of any age not to educate themselves about vegan living. The earlier the better, for your body, mind, and soul; which is a huge bonus. On the physical health level, the earlier you stop putting animal products through your system – the better off you will be in adult years. It’s been a real health plan for me, though that is a reward; not the reason I did it.
Brooke Cameron:
Many animal advocates believe that the regulation of animal use will lead, eventually, to the abolition of animal use, believing that the best way forward is to address one issue at a time. Do you believe this approach is helpful, and will eventually lead to a vegan world in which we respect all other animals?
M. Butterflies Katz:
That is what they believe, or say they believe, however we’ve been doing the above mentioned approach for a long time and there’s more killing in more horrific ways than ever in history. Therefore, I think we should try a new approach, which is actually asking for what we want. People can understand if we just present it in the right way.
The regulation approach does not ring true to me as does the Abolitionist Approach or any other approach based on nonspeciesism. I have never in my advocacy asked for “better conditions” for animal prisoners or more “humane” methods of harming them, but rather for ‘putting an end to’ the entire system that thinks we have some right to use other animals. In asking for what we really want, we will get better conditions anyway. But I don’t want to get buddy-buddy with exploiters and ask them to rape and murder in a less horrific way, I want them to stop raping and murdering. Period. I’m staying focused on that goal.
Roger Yates
You have recently asked this question on Facebook: “Which of the following definitions of veganism/vegan most resonates with you? Only pick 1 response. Share widely, let's see how veganism is - or should be -defined” followed by 10 closed questionnaire options from which to pick. What have been the results so far, and what can we - or what did you hope - to learn from them?
M. Butterflies Katz:
Thanks Roger for this question. Since I have thousands of vegan activist friends on facebook, I wanted to use that to learn how vegans, and all their perceptions, actually define veganism. I realized from an earlier poll, that we are not talking about the same thing, believe it or not, when we speak of veganism.
Some believe it to be the standard dictionary definition of no animal products in the diet and beyond. For those, I wanted to elevate their definition to one provided by a vegan organization. Various websites all define it differently. I will be putting it all together for my next blog. There are many interesting definitions that will be included: from The Vegan Society (past and present), to Joan Dunayer, to Animal Equality, to Gary Francione, etc. that I intend to include – along with the results of the survey question.
The options were closed because I learned from the previous poll that people will just put in there stupid comments or their misconceived idea of the definition of vegan, like they do it for health reasons. It makes no sense to say that we are vegan for health reasons. We can say we are herbivores for health reasons, but that is not a definition of veganism. The one option that received the most votes was “Recognizing the Right of all sentient animals to be treated with respect/justice” and in close second place was “Do not consume/wear/use animals or take part in activities of their exploitation”. If we put them together, I think we’ve got a winner! Over 845 vegan activists voted, and the drum roll -The winning definition is: “Recognizing the Right of all sentient animals to be treated with respect and justice. Vegans do not consume/wear/use animals or take part in activities of their exploitation.”
Blog Post on Results of Poll: http://thevegantruth.blogspot.com/search/label/Definition%20of%20Veganism
Barbara DeGrande:
What have you learned about human nature after decades living as a vegan? What has been the single biggest obstacle you have overcome in maintaining a vegan life?
M. Butterflies Katz:
I’ve learned that human nature is something that we need to “rise above”…humans are propelled by their ego and do what they want, not necessarily what is right. It’s for us vegans to help others to do some soul-searching so they can find that part of themselves that would never want to inflict suffering on those who can suffer. Anyone searching for their soul would arrive at that conclusion. Vegan educators need to help people to discover the vegan that lives within them. I’ve learned that people are more open to making change and listening to the vegan message if it comes dressed in a loving vibe. In a space of Love, people are more able to see the light in regards to veganism.
I know this is a rather unconventional approach, but you’ve heard all the others, and I do participate in some of those approaches too, but I think love affairs have created many vegans. And the goal is to create more vegans. I can hardly think of an obstacle to maintaining a vegan life. The only obstacle was myself before I “got it”. For example, I sort of sensed that dairy production was not right, but I chose, for a long while, not to further educate myself. I avoided it, because I knew I would have to “give up” my ice cream habit and I didn’t WANT TO. That part of me that was not a Truth seeker and was avoiding going beyond vegetarianism, was the only obstacle I’ve ever encountered. The cost of vegan dog food in New Zealand
Ben Hornby:
How has the internet and mostly Facebook & Twitter changed your advocacy? What are the good and bad parts of online advocacy?
M. Butterflies Katz:
The internet is one of the greatest tools we have for spreading the vegan message. An interesting note is that many years ago, when computers first came out to the public, I wasn’t really interested to learn how to use them. Dr. Klaper (vegan medical doctor) said to me that I could use it for vegan advocacy. He convinced me, and taught me and other members of Gentle World, how to use a computer, and I’ve been using it for that purpose ever since.
Twitter/Facebook are an added extra feature to vegan advocacy. I still like to do real-human-contact advocacy too. It’s just something else I can do during the day, every day, while I hide out from the world, which I like to do. Being on Facebook has expanded my horizons and I have had my mind opened by many online bloggers and activists. It’s where I met many of you. I think it is a real high that all us vegan activists are communicating and lifting each other to newer and higher perceptions. Facebook/Twitter used for advocacy is nothing short of a miracle. I can make vegans while in the comfort of my vegan home.
Jason Ward:
Given that animals are sentient and plants are insentient, if we could be confident that no animal would be harmed, would you advocate killing carnivorous plants?
M. Butterflies Katz:
I never thought about this topic. I don’t advocate killing. However, I see what you mean, when a plant is not sentient and it eats a sentient creature and we have the ability to stop this, perhaps we should. But thanks for bringing up an issue I never heard of! I’ve never come across a carnivorous plant, you know. It certainly is not top priority on my list.
Tim Gier:
How important to your vegan philosophy is the deep connection you feel toward free-living animals?
M. Butterflies Katz:
Not that important. I have had beyond-the-beyond incredible experiences with free-living animals that were possibly the highlight of my life. However, I became vegan from knowing domesticated cats. Just knowing that other animals were communicative, that they had a face and two eyes, and that I could have a friendship with them, was enough for me to know (no matter what species of animal; free-living or domesticated or farmed) that I had no right to harm or kill them…and nor would I want to. My vegan philosophy is based in the longing that all animals will be free-living – one day soon.
Jason Ward:
After all these years, how do you stay motivated to work within the movement when there is so much talk of “burn-out”?
M Butterflies Katz:
When abolitionists were fighting for the abolition of human slavery; there was no “burning-out” until emancipation day. When vegan-abolitionists are working for the abolition of nonhuman slavery, there’s no burn-out allowed until all animals are free. So as much as I dislike the constant disagreeing, having to be exposed to people’s indifference to the suffering of other animals, and the depression that comes from constantly hearing/seeing the horrific things humans do to nonhumans, I feel compelled to be a continued voice for them. It’s not about me, it’s about them; their plight they need me to speak up and not burn-out.
Sharni Buckley:
Butterflies, you self identify as being an abolitionist. From my understanding single issue events, such as circus campaigns, are not in accordance with abolitionist principles. Could you please explain why it is viewed as negative to abolish the use of other animals in circuses?
M. Butterflies Katz:
I have never thought to JUST protest the circus. I have only participated in vegan education; which encompasses all harming of all animals. It makes the most sense, to me. I don’t see any difference in a circus, a zoo, a seaquarium, a horse-drawn carriage, dog-racing, hunting, wearing fur/leather/wool, vivisection, eating animal products - all the same - ’animal exploitation’ that’s what I’m against, not a single aspect of it. I believe in changing the whole mindset of how we view other animals. I prefer to tell the whole Truth. I would not be upset with someone if they felt a calling to advocate for abolition of the use of animals in circuses, but I don’t think it is the best approach and it’s not the role I choose to play in the movement. I would hope that if someone were involved with a protest to abolish circuses - that they would also hand out vegan literature. I don’t believe in asking for baby steps. I don’t think we have time for that as a species. Humans need to grasp the vegan concept before it is too late.
Sharni Buckley:
Do you believe, as Gary Francione does, that a single issue campaign incorporating vegan education, when being clear that the campaign is part of an overall effort to end all animal exploitation, is an acceptable form of activism?
Where do you do the in person outreach you do? Is there a particular place or kind of place you go to? Would you tell us a little bit about how you begin a conversation with others about the need to be vegan?
M. Butterflies Katz:
I speak to people whenever it comes organically in life, which is a lot. I participate in vegan cooking classes, vegan educational days to the community with FREE vegan banquet. We just had one in northern New Zealand
I don't do the single issue thing, with incorporating vegan education, so I obviously don't think that is the way however, like I mentioned earlier, I don't have a serious issue with someone if that is their calling so long as there is vegan, anti-speciesist literature as well.
Tim Gier:
Is there a guide in the works on starting vegan community such as the Gentle World for those who would like to start one?
M. Butterflies Katz:
If there isn't, there should be, and I will pass your idea on to the others. There has been a manual put together for the wwoofers who come to stay here. It tells of basic daily behavior that works in communal living. Each wwoofer is handed it to read right when they come. It talks about veganism, and much more. You need a really strong purpose to stay together. It would be good for vegans to get together and live together. It is better for the planet (share refrigerators, cars, etc. - more ecological) better for raising children, though I don't promote that
Carolyn Bailey:
Butterflies, may I ask what a wwoofer is?
M. Butterflies Katz:
It used to be a willing worker on organic farms, and they recently changed it to World Wide Opportunities on Organic Farms. It's a work trade program, where helpers come and help on organic farms and are fed organic food in exchange. I am starting the same type idea but for vegans so vegan travelers will be able to stay with vegans abroad in exchange for accommodation, and perhaps food too. Gentle World gets many wwoofers - mostly young people - and mostly from Europe who are not vegan and get a taste of vegan living, and many become vegan. Also, many of them are already vegan and just want to connect. Wwoofing has been a great program to be involved with.
Wanda Embar, Vegan Peace:
Many abolitionists seem to spend a lot of their energy attacking what they consider welfare groups (like PETA). Do you think that anything good can come from these "internal" attacks or do you believe in working side-by-side.
M. Butterflies Katz:
I think we should be able to voice our concerns about each other's tactics and approaches. Maybe we should do it via personal email at first.
I don't agree with PETA's way - I'm not big on personal attacking.
Maynard asked a nice question about The Cookbook for People Who Love Animals, of which I would like to respond to.
Maynard S. Clark:
Please tell us about The Cookbook for People who Love Animals, which your group published and is distributed out of Summertown TN.
M. Butterflies Katz:
In 1881, a store clerk sold me a copy of The Cookbook for People Who Love Animals; a classic, one of the first vegan cookbooks published in the U.S.
Maynard S. Clark:
'best of class'
M. Butterflies Katz:
It was done on a computer, pre-internet days. And we used to sell it from health food store to health food store on road trips. Before internet, it sold 80,000 copies. It has now sold 100,000 copies. It has recipes for animal friends, too. I felt compelled to meet the Gentle World people after seeing it, because they were the only other people who felt like I did. I was a bit nervous to go to a commune. Especially when the Jones Family mass suicide had just happened, so communes sounded weird to me. But, how bad could they have been if they were all vegan? Some special tid-bits on The Cookbook for People Who Love Animals.
sXe Vegan:
Hi Butterflies: Would you agree that human breeding goes against the core of veganism and is comparable to not neutering domesticated animals? It is undeniable that land is being used (stolen rather, causing extinctions), albeit much less for a vegan diet and secondly, vegan children may well grow up, discard their vegan values and become carnivores unless the laws change to be non-speciesist.
M. Butterflies Katz:
I don't promote breeding of human beings. I've never had children, purposefully. It's not the same though because breeding other animals is forced upon them by humans, which is akin to sexual assault, and in animal farming it is rape. With humans, breeding has not been forced upon them. But they really should see that this is no time to be having children! We have way too many inhabitants using up the diminishing resources and the world is an insane asylum.
I never wanted to bring someone to a place that I was trying to escape but that is my personal feelings, and if someone does choose to bring a child here, I will love and respect him/her and give them all the love and truth I can offer. We have a 2 year old living with us in Gentle World, his name is Soul. He is a wonderful human being...a treasure...a bring-up in my life. And I won't be afraid to tell him some day, that I advocate for people to stop breeding.
Tim Gier:
Do you think the world would be a better place wihout humans?
M. Butterflies Katz:
Not all humans, but many of them.
Tim Gier:
We certainly have had a very destructive effect on the ecosystem, haven't we?
sXe Vegan:
Thank you! I agree with all you said above and the rape comment, I mean to compare our breeding with say cats and dogs who aren't forced.
M. Butterflies Katz:
The planet surely needs far less humans, we're a pest. We think other species are pests and we proceed to exterminate them, we might get our karma. You mean we should spay / neuter humans, like we do nonhumans? sXe
sXe Vegan:
They should spay and neuter themselves, I suppose human rights issues come into play if it is done on children and so on. But then again we fail to have a biocentric perspective.
M. Butterflies Katz:
I'm all for spaying/neutering humans, and educating people to do that to them selves, without it being forced...as that takes away freedom and basic rights. But this is just off the top of my head, and I really need to consider issues for longer than a minute or two.
sXe Vegan:
Yes of course. Thanks!
Carolyn Bailey:
Thank you, Butterflies, both for your insight and your time today. ARZone very much appreciate you being here with us today!
M. Butterflies Katz:
Parting is such sweet sorrow. Time to go. Thank-you for tuning in, hope I was not too boring after all the great philosophical guests on Animal Rights Zone...
Ben Hornby:
Thanks for being here in ARZone today. You were certainly not at all boring.
Mangus O’Shales:
Yes, thanks, it was good to hear from a more down to earth person!!
ARZone exists to promote rational discussion about our relations with other animals and about issues within the animal advocacy movement. Please continue the debate after a chat by starting a forum discussion or by making a point under a transcript.
This was the transcript of what was said without personal comments, welcome and goodbye comments, edited out.
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